3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
I've always taken these verses to be referring to non-Christians; but I see more and more that we, as believers, are also just looking to get our ears tickled. We gauge our closeness to God on our emotions and the feelings we experience. We only listen to the preachers who say what we want to hear. I think there is a more level-headed way to approach things that takes the emphasis off of what we feel and puts it where it should be: God's glory.
The next verse tells us to be sober in all things and endure hardship. This doesn't really tie into what I'm talking about here but I like it--a lot--so I'm gonna give my two cents on it anyway.
Be sober in all things and endure hardship. It's gonna be hard, it isn't gonna be fair; but don't let your emotions get the best of you. Be sober in all things and endure hardship.
It's like I tell the boys I coach, and sometimes the girls: "Quit crying and suck it up."
Ryan,
ReplyDeleteI can def. see where you are coming from on this and to some extent I agree. But I think that the experience that you describe is something that can be found at most churches and in most church bodies. I feel like there are always going to be people that attend church, whether it be ROCKHARBOR or anywhere else, that are there solely for the experience instead of trying to learn or seek and encounter Him.
I would be interested to know what your experience has been like at the new church you are attending because that is just my own view and experience, I could be totally off.
Oh, there's no new church. I'm just letting the bible studies and small groups I go to be church and skipping the weekend services.
ReplyDeleteHey Ryan, thanks for being honest. The whole issue of church/Christian culture is something new that I'm discovering every week. Like Darin said on Saturday, being honest is key, and you've done that.
ReplyDeleteBut more than simply remaining at being honest, honesty is a medium in which we have to work through.
I felt like we should've talked more at the retreat. Let's meet sometime and just chat. I think I would benefit us a lot.
Hey ya Ryan!
ReplyDeleteThank yo for your honesty! I would like to propose honest questions to you. Do you feel that these verses apply for the teaching at RH?
"3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."
Do you have conviction about the lack of biblical truth? Or are they communicating the truth in a way you are not comfortable with?
PLEASE be assured that these are REAL questions and not a back handed manner of being snarky with you. These are things I have thought about a lot during and BEFORE going to RH. I know RH is taking an slow and intentional step to engage the Holy Spirit in new ways. I find this challenging, and exciting. But I know my mind and heart, and what it is drawn to, so I know I need to keep it on a "biblical leash". So I am going to disagree with you on your last paragraph, it TOTALLY ties in to what you are saying!! the whole "remaining sober" is what I needed to hear and be reminded of!
I would like to encourage you not to pull too faraway form RH, we need hearts and minds like yours. And I would like to challenge you to really pray about dividing your preference from un-biblical or half truths doctrine and teaching.
You have the mind and heart of a mentor/Shepard the worst thing you could do to us and yourself is isolate yourself. :)
Love ya dude. I hope I didn't come off harsh, this was really interesting to read and comment on.
I heard a pastor teach on this portion of scripture and it gave me a new perspective on what sunday church meetings should be like. He told us to look at a weekend service as a staff meeting. It is where Christ followers are supposed to go to learn, be equipped, encourage, build up, be honest and open, and to share in our lives' purpose. I'm not sure how to exactly answer you right now, but I would love to talk about this in person. This topic is something I am very passionate about. You and Frank and I should get coffee soon!
ReplyDeleteokay, you prefaced yours, so I am going to preface mine with: this is just the way I saw the situation when I read this three times. please do not be offended, I could be totally wrong, but this is how I see this.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand the problem. I think most of the comments are thinking you are talking about RH in general, but I would say that you think this about all churches, in general, and therefore haven't sought out a new church because of that. I respect you using small groups and Bible studies as your unconventional church. But I do think that this post comes down to you, and not the church, that being RH or the church in general. simply put, you said that you stopped attending church because of how OTHER people were using church for an experience. you did not mention teaching or unbiblical truths being a reason for not going to church. you said it was the people. so the people bother you and that is why you stopped going? I think it is now imperative to ask yourself the question why you go (went) to church in the first place? I'm talking about things other than your preference for RH based on music, art, lifestyle... If you can walk into church, any church, with Jesus and be a Berean and challenge the speakers if you disagree and worship Him through music and art and your humbled presence and not be expecting an experience, then I do not see why you would ever let other people ever get in the way of why you chose to go to church in the very first place. I see this post as much more about you than what you are noticing lately. I further think it is a red flag to let other people's ideas about church change what you do in seeking God and learning more about Him. It does not have to be about other people if you don't want it to be. Lastly, these are huge concerns and if you are noticing a trend in the church, or in RH specifically, then voice them! Jesus' disciples voiced their opinions.. in Spiritual Leadership on page 74 in the last paragraph, J, Oswald Sanders reiterates that Paul encouraged the believers but "that did not restrain him from being faithful in correcting faults." take this to heart and voice your concern for the church! RH, in my opinion, has grown up a bunch in the past few years. it has become more established as a church body, but is still very much a place to see and be seen. it's ridiculous. and it is an experience, if that is what the believer is looking for. but you don't have to be this kind of believer. if you want to go to church, then by all means, go to church and show others what that looks like from a Biblical perspective. and please speak up! the church body mustn't be quiet. RH has tons of issues that need attention. and you have a unique head on your shoulders to shepherd the flocks. : )
Hey ryan! Thanks for your honesty man, and a pretty bold move it was! Props on not being a wimp about what you truly feel about RockHarbor. I’m a loyal person and RockHarbor is my home church, so with that being said I’m going to have to rebuke you with the same boldness that you rebuked RockHarbor with… I apologize if this comes off as harsh, please know that my tone is gentle.
ReplyDelete"I recently stopped attending weekend services at Rock Harbor because I got the distinct impression that all anybody was looking for when they went to church was an experience." – We’re not to go to church to experience a pleasing ambiance and good music, all we have to do is go to a cozy lil coffee shop to get that… No, we go to church to hear from God. We go to church to learn about Him. We go to church to worship THE KING, with other believers whom the King loves equally as much as He loves us. We walk through those doors and lay down our pride, we lay down our worries, our fears, our critical attitudes, and we open our hearts to see what the Lord has to teach us, and if nothing else, we come with an attitude ready to worship because He is worthy, ALWAYS. So yes, in fact, people do go to church for an experience, to experience God and to feel Him moving and speaking in our lives. And yes, some people are there for the wrong reasons, but REJOICE that they are even there at all, hearing the Word of God! So ryan, as a brother in Christ, I suggest that you go to church with your eyes fixed on Jesus, and don’t worry about why other people are there… Completely erase the notion of, “this is too trendy for me” because it’s the God’s house and His people you’re talking about. Instead ask yourself why you are there, and where your heart and mind is at, and what God could possibly be trying to speak to your heart.
"I've been going to Rock Harbor for awhile now because I really like the music and the art and the teaching and the funny preachers; and I think that's the problem." ---So based off of this statement, it seems as though you weren’t attending church for the right reasons in the first place. Like you said, the primary purpose of church is to glorify God. Yes, factors like music genre and the art play a small role in going to a church. As a guy who likes rock music, I’m not gunna “choose” a gospel music church, or at least not every week. But in the big picture, the style of music is very much not important. I think you’re confused because RockHarbor is in tune with the surrounding culture. The music is great and current, the art is cool, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all… How is RockHarbor as a community supposed to reach out into our culture if we are completely unrelatable…. Paul talked about how he becomes all things to all people and he finds relative ground in order that the Gospel would be shared. That’s exactly what RockHarbor does. It is not a sin for church to be “trendy,” styles of music come and go, art comes and goes, but what ALWAYS ALWAYS stays the same is the Gospel and the doctrines we as Christian stick to, and RockHarbor in absolutely no way compromises ANY of these doctrines….
"I see more and more that we, as believers, are also just looking to get our ears tickled. We gauge our closeness to God on our emotions and the feelings we experience. We only listen to the preachers who say what we want to hear."… “3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.: “ –
ReplyDeleteI’m not sure if you’re suggesting that RockHabor has “ear-tickling” messages, but just in case you are I want to rip down that wall… If there is one thing I have learned from Darin, it is that God is to be glorified no matter what… whether we like it or not, whether it hurts or not, whether our lives get better or worse; and that nothing we do for God is for our own benefit… and I think that sums up RockHarbors teaching as a whole. That isn’t necessarily pleasing to the ear; and I can’t think of a better way to glorify God. RockHarbor’s messages are the opposite of ear-tickling. It’s God glorifying truth. Never once have I heard a message that is even the least bit “self-centered”… Darin has some of the most hard hitting convicting messages I’ve ever heard, and his humor just happens to compliment the truth he preaches. And take Johnny, how he preached a convicting message about “living a life that could not have been lived without the Holy Spirit,” And being bold and getting off our butts during the week and actually living like a Christian. And Saresh, the pastor from India, coming and yelling at the entire church telling us to stop being so busy and to be doers of the Word. As far as sound doctrine goes RockHarbor is rooted in the truth… And I cant think of any myths that RockHarbor believes in….
So ryan, again I am sorry if this came off a little intense, but I think it is a subject that needs some intensity. Jesus preached in parables so that only those who were truly seeking Him, and intently LISTENING to Him, would understand them; or come to Him with questions. It’s very easy to sit in church with a critical mind and closed heart and completely miss everything God is trying to say. I encourage you to find a new church if RockHarbor isn’t where you want to be, because in heaven we’re going to be worshiping God with other believers for all eternity… He is worthy of your attention and your praise whether everyone in the room is there for the right reasons or not man. I just want to warn you against a spirit of comparison which the enemy LOOOVESSSS to use to separate believers from the Body…. PLEASE know that I say all of this out of love, it’s hard to hear my tone over text but it is gentle, but stern. <3
Ryan thank you for the honesty man. Although I appreciate the transparency within this post it pains me to hear your opinion. Honestly man I would have to deeply disagree. But not on the petty quips regarding the indie nature of RH, but rather with your quoting of scripture. I was following you throughout the whole post until you quoted that passage. I have a feeling that you may have done 1 of two things wrong by using it to support your opinion. The first, misinterpreting the authorial intention of the passage. Or secondly, misapplying this particular portion of scripture to the Rock Harbor Community. I know that your sole purpose in writing this post is to point toward the truth and warn against a false church structure which can ultimately lead people astray; and I appreciate your "Luther like" mentality. BUT, in using: "they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth." You have implicitly stated that the "they" spoken of in this verse is the RH community and the "teachers" are men like Darin and Johnny whom I dearly love. These are men who live lives centered around the cross and are seeking the will of Christ above all things, and it is wrong to imply that they are teachers whom we've chosen for ourselves in order to please our wicked nature. I feel as though you have ripped this verse from its context and although it is poignant it does not able to be used when talking about Rock Harbor, a Gospel centered Bible preaching, Doctrinally sound Church. I have felt just as you have in the past regarding the way people dress and behave while attending church, but the bottom line is that we ought not come to church with anything but Christ on our mind. As Zach previously stated, I would encourage you to pray more about what the Biblical response to your frustration would be. Because as a new creation in Christ we ought not pull away from brokenness, but seek it out, praying for the reconciliation of our Lord Christ Jesus. Much love brother. I would adore discussing this in a more personal environment. Praying for your journey.
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